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Game Balance : Red Blok
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| zellak | Date: Friday, 28-Sep-2012, 09:57:48 | Message # 1 |
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Most everyone who plays AT-43 concurs that the Red Blok is the weakest army in the game. Che has been struggling along now under the yoke of playing an underpowered army for years. So first, i would like to apologise for the tabletop defeats i have inflicted on him in the past. With my only excuse being that i didn't realise just how bad they are until i played them in the last big campaign. 
So what is this thread all about ?
I'm not 100% sure......i am not going to list changes i think should be made.
For that might lead to online debates that no one wants.
So here are ideas, which people can read, and then we can talk over which ideas might then become proposals when we are face to face.
A list of ideas (Not Proposals)
So what in effect is wrong with the RB ?
The type 3 infantry are overcosted, i luv it when i see them on the table because they have a move 10cm, and only have short range weapons, so have to get in close,and as we all know type 3 infantry have to take cover. So they are a badly designed unit. A huge points sink. And an easy target.
idea 1; drop the cost to 300 AP for all kollossus.
idea 2 ; all kollossus units come in 4 man units, getting the 4th guy for free. (easier to count  )
The main problem with the RB is their AFV.
The type 1's dont have anti-tank weapons.
The type 2's have short range weapons and slow movement.
This should be countered by their heavier armour (in the fluff) but in practice 15 Armour is not exactly all that great.
Not for the high cost of the RB type 2's.
idea 1 ;Allow the Hetman 2 (its got long range guns)
idea 2; Increase the armour of all RB striders (fluffy  )
idea 3; Allow type 1's to buy one shot AT missiles as upgrades.
idea 4; AFAIK only UNA and RB use missiles, so change the RB Hussar missile to a 3+ locked shot (from a 4+ locked shot).
..........................(Making all missiles in the game the same...ie 3+ to hit)
idea 5; Give the infantry AT stickibombs.
If you have any ideas feel free to add them.
Those with glib one liners, and nothing constructive to say, need not apply.
Thanks.
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Message edited by zellak - Friday, 28-Sep-2012, 09:59:48
DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| Che | Date: Friday, 28-Sep-2012, 11:43:06 | Message # 2 |
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Quote (zellak) Che has been struggling along now under the yoke of playing an underpowered army for years. So first, i would like to apologise for the tabletop defeats i have inflicted on him in the past. With my only excuse being that i didn't realise just how bad they are until i played them in the last big campaign.
Oh sorry! Didn't read that last bit about glib one liners until I started typing so I'll shut up. Anyway I'm not looking for sympathy so don't cry for me Marge and Tina
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Wargamers like to paint their privates!!
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| pavlov | Date: Friday, 28-Sep-2012, 15:15:49 | Message # 3 |
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And the other red blok player is happy playing the hand he's dealt.
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Message edited by pavlov - Friday, 28-Sep-2012, 15:36:07
There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
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| Che | Date: Friday, 28-Sep-2012, 16:20:05 | Message # 4 |
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I agree with zellak about the AFVs, especially the Type 1s. A bit of AT capability would be good. The missle is OK at 4+ to hit 'cos the Red Blok is supposed to be a bit cack at that sort of thing 
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Wargamers like to paint their privates!!
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| Banksi | Date: Friday, 28-Sep-2012, 21:45:45 | Message # 5 |
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For my tuppence, I'd rather see points changes to the RB than new units, It will be far easier to judge if the costs are correct after testing than creating new and possibly game bending units.
I think points changes would not break the mold that has been set for the RB and could fix the weaknesses that have been pointed out.
The units that Rackham created but never put into production, I do not have any problems with them. They were probably meant to balance the RB anyway.
no extra rules!!
no additional weapons!!
no new weapons!!
New created units bug me.
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| pavlov | Date: Saturday, 29-Sep-2012, 14:30:43 | Message # 6 |
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HI
Change the rb type 3 movement to 10cm normal +10 cm for run move, or double the run move +12cm.
Also move type 1 chasis sp to 4 and type 2 to 5 chasis sp type three to 6 chasis sp this should help the Soundounk last a little longer well longer than the camel
I take no credit for these as ther nicked from at44 and have to my knowledge been playtested, these seem to be more subtle than some suggestions.
If a transport is shot down the contents roll for damage not an auto destruct for the whole unit so you might get some you might not, which would be a general rule for all transports.
Alan
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Message edited by pavlov - Saturday, 29-Sep-2012, 15:11:38
There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
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| zellak | Date: Saturday, 29-Sep-2012, 16:36:43 | Message # 7 |
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Quote (pavlov) Also move type 1 chassis sp to 4 and type 2 to 5, chassis sp type three to 6 sp
This looks a good idea, as the RB AFV look as if they are built to last.
And would effectively change the RB frame SP to equal that of the Oni. 
Quote (pavlov) Change the rb type 3 movement to 10cm normal +10 cm for run move, or double the run move +12cm.
Doubling the run move would get them into range quicker.
Quote (Banksi) no extra rules!!
no additional weapons!!
no new weapons!!
Thats a lot of demands and restrictions. 
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Message edited by zellak - Saturday, 29-Sep-2012, 18:11:22
DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| Banksi | Date: Saturday, 29-Sep-2012, 19:28:19 | Message # 8 |
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Quote (zellak) Thats a lot of demands and restrictions.
Not really there are a lot of things apart from weapons and rules that can balance games without breaking things
Quote (pavlov)
Change the rb type 3 movement to 10cm normal +10 cm for run move, or double the run move +12cm.
Also move type 1 chasis sp to 4 and type 2 to 5 chasis sp type three to 6 chasis sp this should help the Soundounk last a little longer well longer than the camel
Now these changes don't look like game breakers!
What about thinking the RB as WW2 Russians - fast tanks, poor/med armour , not great armament but lots of them, increase the size of the units but increase the cost as well. Allow double size units for double the costs. We all know bigger units are more effective than smaller ones. So have a unit of 6 kolossus, and all afv's can have double the amount in a unit.
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| zellak | Date: Saturday, 29-Sep-2012, 21:15:13 | Message # 9 |
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Quote (Banksi) Now these changes don't look like game breakers!
I agree. (a wee bit more AT fire would be good though)
Quote (Banksi) What about thinking the RB as WW2 Russians - fast tanks, poor/med armour , not great armament but lots of them, increase the size of the units but increase the cost as well. Allow double size units for double the costs. We all know bigger units are more effective than smaller ones. So have a unit of 6 kolossus, and all afv's can have double the amount in a unit.
That would mean a 6 man RPG Kollossus unit would be 900 AP. A pair of Kossaks cost the same.
Thats a big points sink in 3000 AP. (and they might still struggle due to packing short range weapons ??? )
WW2 Russians were fast and plentiful, a horde army, the RB are not cheap but are slow.
The fluff says that their AFV armour is great (15 armour), but in-game its really only average. (Therian / ONi / Karman MBT are 14 armour)
So usually still 4+ to penetrate with most AT weapons (Pen 14 or 15)
So nudging up the frame numbers to match the ONi would help survivability without altering the Armour scores.
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DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| pavlov | Date: Saturday, 29-Sep-2012, 22:30:11 | Message # 10 |
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Hi
Red blok t1 armour 13, t2 armour 15, t3 armour 17, t3 infantry 12.........what army books are you reading best armour in the game.
alan
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There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
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| zellak | Date: Tuesday, 02-Oct-2012, 16:19:04 | Message # 11 |
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Quote (pavlov) Red blok t1 armour 13, t2 armour 15, t3 armour 17, t3 infantry 12.........what army books are you reading best armour in the game.
All of them. But its only by 1 point....which makes no difference....see my last post !
Quote (zellak) The fluff says that their AFV armour is great (15 armour), but in-game its really only average. (Therian / ONi / Karman MBT are 14 armour)
Bold word be noted !
( see....Wraith Golgoth / Medium Destroyer / Jungle Buggie)
Added (02-Oct-2012, 4:19 PM)
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Another couple of ideas.
6) Let the RB grenade launchers fire the bacteriological grenades in Operation Frostbite (page 45)
7) Allow RB to have access to the propaganda card from Operation Damocles.
8) Allow RPG Soldaty to upgrade rockets ( Marx2) +2 Penetration.
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Message edited by zellak - Tuesday, 02-Oct-2012, 16:29:48
DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| Banksi | Date: Friday, 05-Oct-2012, 18:42:16 | Message # 12 |
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Quote (zellak)
6) Let the RB grenade launchers fire the bacteriological grenades in Operation Frostbite (page 45)
7) Allow RB to have access to the propaganda card from Operation Damocles.
8) Allow RPG Soldaty to upgrade rockets ( Marx2) +2 Penetration.
6) No
7) Yes
8) No
Simples
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| zellak | Date: Friday, 05-Oct-2012, 19:13:00 | Message # 13 |
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Quote (Banksi) 6) No
7) Yes
8) No
Simples
Remember this thread is for gathering ideas.....which may or may not become proposals for beefing up the RB so they have a more even chance of winning.
If you (or anyone else !) have any ideas.....fluffy / rule changes / hardware / whatever ?
Then please feel free to share.
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Message edited by zellak - Friday, 05-Oct-2012, 19:13:57
DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| Banksi | Date: Friday, 05-Oct-2012, 19:24:48 | Message # 14 |
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Quote (zellak)
Remember this thread is for gathering ideas.....
I agree
The ideas for changing points values, using previously designed Rackham cards, not released Rackham units... These ideas I go along with.
It's the manufactured items I'm not going with.
Yes I want the RB to be stronger and be more able to win but only by revaluing the equipment they have available.
Manufactured units/equipment caused too many problems in the past, Lets stay away from it.
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| zellak | Date: Friday, 05-Oct-2012, 21:10:19 | Message # 15 |
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Quote (Banksi) I agree
The ideas for changing points values, using previously designed Rackham cards, not released Rackham units... These ideas I go along with.
It's the manufactured items I'm not going with.
Yes I want the RB to be stronger and be more able to win but only by revaluing the equipment they have available.
Manufactured units/equipment caused too many problems in the past, Lets stay away from it.
<<<<<<<<<<< sighs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
i was asking for ideas.
Not more restrictions on people who might wish to post fresh ideas.
..............it could be (blue sky thinking ) that we only have to make a single change in order to achieve the result !
......................it could be we need 10 changes ?
..............................it could be, each army might need to gift the RB with one of its own abilities ?
........................................or it could be that something completely RADICAL is needed.
.....ideas !!!!!....... anyone got any ??????
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DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| Banksi | Date: Friday, 05-Oct-2012, 22:24:54 | Message # 16 |
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[size=10]Ok, from your experience, whats broken in the RB army, don't say everything.
Since all armies have a weakness, what is too weak in the RB list? I'm talking units.
And is there anything that is already available to the RB that could be added to those units to fix them
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| pavlov | Date: Friday, 05-Oct-2012, 22:57:43 | Message # 17 |
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Hi
The Red Blok type 3 infantry are tooooooooo slow there dead before they get started, there's not enough AT of any description.
I dont want my head ripped off for suggesting the following. A new Red Blok hero
Abilities:
Pathfinder: The hero can drop 2 beacons these are used like the Cogs beacons and allow Kollosi and Soundounk's to deploy X cm's from hero just like the cogs.
Radio net: Using the pathfinder ability allows the hero access to the local radio net which will allow him to use all indirect weapons ( like una laser targeting).
Ghost: Same as Karmen Jindo un.
Cannot be attached to a unit and cannot take objectives.
Still need's some work (well a lot of work) but would help if taken at the right cost, I also think he might have a side kick like a body guard i.e. a commisar to make sure he is still loyal to the Red Blok a bit like nork dedog in 40k.
Alan
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There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
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| Banksi | Date: Friday, 05-Oct-2012, 23:04:30 | Message # 18 |
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Ok, Just spotted something, why do the RB pay more than the UNA for Rocket launchers in their basic infantry 50pts as apposed to 25pts... that could be one of the fixes.
You see look for weaknesses within the list instead of looking at fixes outwith.
RB type 3 have the Blitz ability (+10 movement on the first round) and have better Armour RB 12 / UNA 9 but as you say the weapons haven't enough AT capability.
I think comparing UNA and RB to one another may be the way to find an answer, all other armies just don't fit the style.
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| Banksi | Date: Friday, 05-Oct-2012, 23:30:13 | Message # 19 |
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This goes against the grain but...
Why isn't there a RB type 3 with an ATGuass gun 7/ 1 14/1, again another possible fix to the weakness you've pointed out
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| Banksi | Date: Friday, 05-Oct-2012, 23:36:25 | Message # 20 |
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Fitting ATGauss guns to type 3 infantry and type 1 afv's would fix things
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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