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MedTec Units - Support Units Or Not?
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| Balrog | Date: Monday, 17-Oct-2011, 20:52:04 | Message # 1 |
Aun Va III
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MedTec Units: As Type 2 infantry, with only 3 medics in the squad, the MedTec unit have to test for morale each round. Should we change this unit to be classified as a Support Unit, as described in the Frostbite Campaign rulebook, page 12, or leave them to roll for morale each turn?
Upgrading them to a Support Unit means they need to be reduced to one before rolling for morale.
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| gerrywithaG | Date: Monday, 17-Oct-2011, 21:27:11 | Message # 2 |
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Gents,
It would also be a good idea if people had read the morale rules correctly as well, and this waste of time would have been saved.
FROM PAGE 74 OF THE MAIN RULEBOOK!!!!!!!!!!
Morale test upon the unit’s activation
A unit is subject to a Morale test upon its activation, in the
following situations:
• A Type 1 or Type 2 infantry unit has fallen to 3 members
or fewer;
• A Type 3 infantry unit has fallen to 1 member;
• A unit of armored fighting vehicles is entirely immobilized.
Therefore as this unit started with 3 members it is not subject to morale on every activation until it takes a casualty in the first place
Cheers
Gerry
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Message edited by gerrywithaG - Monday, 17-Oct-2011, 21:30:23
And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Banksi | Date: Monday, 17-Oct-2011, 21:47:57 | Message # 3 |
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Another point Gerry is that it states that the medic use a type 2 slot, not that they are type two.
So I agree with your reading of the rules that they only take a morale check after loosing a member. It makes sense that way.
Cheers
Ian
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| gerrywithaG | Date: Monday, 17-Oct-2011, 21:56:21 | Message # 4 |
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Quote (Banksi) Another point Gerry is that it states that the medic use a type 2 slot, not that they are type two.
Ian, it does state that they are a type 2 unit
From Page128 of Frostbite
UNIT COMPOSITION
Type: 2.
Numbers: 3.
Standard equipment: Field hospital.
Optional equipment: None.
Special weapons: None.
Specialists: Medic.
Officer: None.
So I think that covers it as well!! 
Cheers
Gerry
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And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Balrog | Date: Wednesday, 19-Oct-2011, 23:11:45 | Message # 5 |
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Aun Va III
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Hi Gerry ... Ur ref to "fallen" is a bit of a play on words.
MedTec has 3 medics, so has too roll each round for morale. As a solution to this, our Red Blok ARC faction can add another medic to give it 4 in the unit, or any player can add their civvy engineer to them. Not sure how other factions would deal with this, but the MedTec team inherit ALL the factions advantages AND disadvantages that they join ... and finally ... their mentioned in the official Rackham FAQ's, taken from the Rackham forums before they went pear-shaped by seasoned AT-43 players in other forums, who questioned the original designers in the "good old days" ...
Rackham FAQ wrote:
Q7. If, at the end of a battle, a unit is in a situation in which it would have to check for morale (regardless of whether it has the 'Nerves of Steel' ability or not), that unit is eliminated as a casualty and has to be rebuilt with MPs. Now, given that MedTec Teams have to make a morale check every turn, does this mean that a company which includes MedTechs lose them after every battle, even if the unit didn't suffer any casualties?
In other words, are MedTech teams for a single battle only?
A7. You are perfectly right : MedTech are one-use mercenary. Even this way, they are so costless...
As I use the MedTec team, I want to leave them as they are, so I ether pass my Morale test, or have to spend 2 LPs to keep them active, and have voted so.
I don't believe in amending rules which give one army an advantage over another, however minor. A few minors later and before u know it, we got a MAJOR problem on our hands! ... Walts
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| gerrywithaG | Date: Thursday, 20-Oct-2011, 00:20:11 | Message # 6 |
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Quote (Balrog) Hi Gerry ... Ur ref to "fallen" is a bit of a play on words.
Walter, It isn't a play on words. It is taken straight verboten from the rule book. I underlined and put in bold the word " Fallen to highlight it
Quote (Balrog) I don't believe in amending rules which give one army an advantage over another, however minor. A few minors later and before u know it, we got a MAJOR problem on our hands! ... Walts
This isn't amending the rules . It is playing them as they are written
And if you don't believe in amending rules why do we have so many house rules then??
Cheers
Gerry
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And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Balrog | Date: Thursday, 20-Oct-2011, 08:49:06 | Message # 7 |
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Aun Va III
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Soz Gerry ... didn't explain myself very well, again! ... soz.
When I say "play on words" I meant ur interpretation of the overall rule ... with ur focus being on the word "fallen" as ref.
In simplistic terms, ALL Type I & II units with 3 members ... "fallen", "starting with" or "otherwise" ... have to take morale test, unless specified elsewhere (e.g. "Nerves of Steel"), and are also lost and removed from the faction at the end of the battle ... so "fallen" is obviously another incorrect conversion of the French to English language. It's one of the reasons the Frostbite Campaign rules mentions it in the Support Units composition, FB Page 12, as most are 3 members, so supersedes (and clarifys) that incorrect "fallen" ref.
If the MedTec unit was meant to be in the same category as the Support Units, I'm sure the original designers would have noted them as Support Units within the FB rules.
Zellak has mentioned many times that the conversion of the original rules to English has caused odd words to be interpreted wrong, and this rule does highlight that.
About my ref to amending rules ... my concern is always with giving one army an advantage over another ... and upgrading the MedTec's to Type III's would do this. I'm 100% for inHouse rules when there is a need for clarity, but not at the expense of favourtism to one or more armies. I use MedTec, so it would be to my advantage to vote "Yes", but it's a (minor) unfair advantage to do so, so have asked the rules to be left as they are ... Hope this clarifies things? Walts.
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| gerrywithaG | Date: Thursday, 20-Oct-2011, 11:56:23 | Message # 8 |
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Quote (Balrog) In simplistic terms, ALL Type I & II units with 3 members ... "fallen", "starting with" or "otherwise" ... have to take morale test, unless specified elsewhere (e.g. "Nerves of Steel"), and are also lost and removed from the faction at the end of the battle ... so "fallen" is obviously another incorrect conversion of the French to English language. It's one of the reasons the Frostbite Campaign rules mentions it in the Support Units composition, FB Page 12, as most are 3 members, so supersedes (and clarifys) that incorrect "fallen" ref.
Sorry Walter, but I think that the interpretation that you are making here is incorrect. I accept there were occasional translation problems from French but I think you are really stretching it with that in this case. The Frostbite rules on page 12 do not clarify or supercede anything. They are in reference to a specific unit type, for this campaign, which in this case are support units and nothing else
Why are you making the assumption that the Medtec unit is a support unit? It is listed as a type 2 Inf unit. It just happens to have three members in it. It IS NOT listed as a support unit and therefore should not be treated as one. The Morale rules for support units in Frostbite are specific to support units only, in that they are treated as type 3 units FOR MORALE PURPOSES ONLY. They do not replace the morale rules in the mainbook per se and if your reasoning is because the medtec unit is only a three man unit then your thinking here is incorrect.
The med tec unit is a NORMAL type 2 inf unit which starts at three members, and would test for morale as soon as it takes a single casualty under the main rules, and should be treated as such. The support units can be 2 or three man units and are treated, for morale purposes only, as a type 3 unit in that they test only when reduced down to a single figure. There is a fundemental difference there and that is being overlooked.
The medtec unit needs to be looked at as a normal unit, and treated accordingly. Just because it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck doesn't neccesarily mean that it is a duck and that is the assumption that is being, wrongly, made in this case
Cheers
Gerry
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Message edited by gerrywithaG - Thursday, 20-Oct-2011, 11:57:41
And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Balrog | Date: Thursday, 20-Oct-2011, 12:33:44 | Message # 9 |
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Aun Va III
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Hey Gerry
Sorry, my previous post wasn't very clear.
I'd mentioned the Support Units as an example of units that have only 3 inf members in it and are Type I & II's, but don't need to roll for morale checks, not that the MedTec unit come into the Support Units type in any way ... as you've better explained it, thanks.
So, if the MedTec unit have too roll for morale every round and fail, they simply need some encouragement from the faction leaders who spend 2LPs. It's not the end of the world if 2LPs allows them to act as normal, is it? Or have I missed something in morale as well?? 
I'm still learning the game, so be blunt to help me, and I'm sure others, understand things,
Thanks again for ur patience ... Walts
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Message edited by Balrog - Thursday, 20-Oct-2011, 12:41:47
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| Balrog | Date: Friday, 21-Oct-2011, 10:48:00 | Message # 10 |
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Aun Va III
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Hi Guys ... The polls closed with a 50/50 result ... How do we proceed with that?
... Create ANOTHER poll (I can hear the moans & groans already!)
... leave the rules as is???
... Roll a die on Sunday????
There's been plenty of opportunity for all players to vote & voice their concerns online ... so a die roll for me is the way I would go or maybe leave the rules as they are???? I don't know, AND I keep changing my mind!!! ... Walts
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Message edited by Balrog - Friday, 21-Oct-2011, 14:45:36
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