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Transport comparison.
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| gerrywithaG | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:52:30 | Message # 21 |
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Quote (Banksi) Points cost?????
I thought they would be free!!!!!
No such thing as a free banananananananananananana 
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| zellak | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 11:31:48 | Message # 22 |
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Quote (gerrywithaG) How many test dice were thrown in each case??? And what ranges were the hits being calculated at?? Were the same number of dice thrown for each range band???
No dice were thrown, all stats are based the number of attempts multiplied by the chance of failure.
This will give the average number of hits.
ie. DK fires 8 shots at 4+ to hit.
50% failure rates at 4+ on a D6.
therefore ....half the shots miss on average.
therefore......4 hits (on average)Added (04-Mar-2012, 10:31 AM)
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Quote (Banksi) Has anyone looked at the points cost for
all the Therian routines?
Or that ONi R&D Vehicles can still fire when the weapons are destroyed?
I'm sure we could go on about a unit in every army and we haven't even seen what the Cogs can do yet!!!!!!!
If you want to. 
But could you start your own thread.
This one is for comparing transports.
As they are so obviously broken. 
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DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| Banksi | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 16:01:11 | Message # 23 |
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Quote (zellak)
This one is for comparing transports. As they are so obviously broken.
They are not broken,
Stating it holds a basic unit is clouding the issue
Being able to hold more troops is also a huge bonus, making the transport unit a lot more effective and so expensive, , it's the numbers it holds that's key.
Added (04-Mar-2012, 1:24 PM)
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It could be that weapons, armour aside the capacity of the transport bears the brunt of the costing.
This would explain the lower costing of the Karman transport since it only hold 4 fighters and all the other transports hold between 8 and 12 fighters
Added (04-Mar-2012, 2:32 PM)
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I've re-phrased the troop carriers so that they are all based on similar stats, not percentage based
Dirt Kongaroo : page 68 / 225 AP/ move 25/ armour 14 / morale 10 (3+)/ gun scores 8 shots no automatic hits/ no rerolls.... pen8 /dam1/ holds 4 troops
Soundounk : page 56 / 275 AP / move 20 / armour 11 / morale 9 (4+) / gun scores 6 shots no automatic hits/ no rerolls....pen7/ dam1/ holds 8 troops
Camel : page 30 / 250 AP / move 25 / armour 9 / morale 7 (4+) / guns cores 2 automatic hits at range 2plus rerolls....pen 14/dam 1/ holds 8 troops
I notice the Therian transport is missing from this list
Kraken Glogoth page 42 / 300ap/ move 25/ Morale automatic pass/ armour 14/ 2 guns auto hit at range 3 plus rerolls .. pen 14/1 /holds 8 troops
As you can see it is now clear why the Dirt Kongaroo is a cheaper transport
It has poorer carrying capacity and the weapons are not as good as two of it's other rivals.
Added (04-Mar-2012, 2:44 PM)
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aother way to look at the weapons is this
Hitting on a 2+
Kongaroo 8 shots at range 0/ no reroll
Soundounk 6 shots at range 0/ no reroll
Camel 2 shots at range 4 plus rerolls
Golgoth 2 shots at range 4 plus rerolls
Added (04-Mar-2012, 3:01 PM)
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We forgot all about the ONi Medium enforcer
Medium Enforcer ONi book page 55/ 375AP/ Move 30/ Armour 13/ Morale 7 (4+) / guns scores 6 shots no automatic hits/ no rerolls/ pen 7 /1 / holds 12 troops
Hitting on a 2+ - the same as the Soundounk
NOW doesnt this tell a story.. by increasing the troop capacity it hugely increases the AP cost
It looks like and this is an estimate ... that it costs approx 75- 100AP for each 4 fighters you can carry
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Message edited by Banksi - Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 18:29:27
Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| zellak | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 20:21:09 | Message # 24 |
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Quote (Banksi) Stating it holds a basic unit is clouding the issue
Its the only non variable between the three flyers.
So any comparison does not need to include the passengers as they are so different.
Anyway....4 Karman will easily outgun any 8 type 1 humans/therians. so i see no issue.
i didn't include the non-flyers in order to avoid the extra complication of the ability.
(and you missed, medium enforcer can repair itself or others....thats got to be worth something !)
If anything should be key then it is armour, for getting the troops to their location alive is more important than how many arrive.
The DK excels at this and is the cheapest of the three flyers.
The firepower is more difficult to quantify as the camel carries 2 AT guns and the other two carry anti infantry.
Though 7/8 penetration is a breakpoint, as armour 13 is normally the area of lower end Type 2 AFV (UNA),
Added (04-Mar-2012, 7:21 PM)
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Quote (Banksi) that it costs approx 75- 100AP for each 4 fighters you can carry
Interesting, so the DK carries 4 men at 75 AP, and gets all the other advantages for 150 AP.
The Soundounk BTR 5 pays 150 AP to carry 8 men, and so is rubbish, and pays an extra 125 AP for the pleasure.....Nah !
Going along with your idea though, would it not be a lot less ??????
There is still far to small a gap in the cost left for all the advantages the DK has.
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Message edited by zellak - Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 21:22:23
DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| Banksi | Date: Monday, 05-Mar-2012, 10:35:09 | Message # 25 |
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Quote (zellak)
Going along with your idea though, would it not be a lot less ??????
There is still far to small a gap in the cost left for all the advantages the DK has.
Quote (zellak)
Its the only non variable between the three flyers.
As I said, It is an estimated figure/ an approximation... by not including the two other transports the costs of carrying troops was hidden.
The cost difference between the ONi transport and the others can only be due to the extra transport capability.
So if you reverse the logic... the DK is cheaper because of it's lack of transport capability.
Saying that a unit s a unit no matter how many figures that are in it is a bland statement and couldn't be used to calculate any meaningful points system.
The differences are in units of 4 so there must be a points cost for each transporting of 4 figures... My estimate was 75-100, I could be and probably am wrong but it must be between X amount and Y amount.. it could be 40AP 50AP, 60AP or 70AP per 4 figures.
The fact that DK carries less give it more points for other attributes.
What it certainly isn't is a minimum unit size points cost.
Added (05-Mar-2012, 9:35 AM)
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Quote (Zellak)
All three transports can carry a minimum size type 1 infantry squad of their own army.
So any comparison does not need to include the passengers as they are so different.
This is the major flaw in your argument, by using a statement like minimum size unit you have missed out on an important points variable
Quote (Zellak) Anyway....4 Karman will easily outgun any 8 type 1 humans/therians. so i see no issue.
I thought we were comparing transports.. if you want to discuss troops I suggest opening another thread.
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Message edited by Banksi - Monday, 05-Mar-2012, 14:57:18
Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| zellak | Date: Monday, 05-Mar-2012, 17:41:43 | Message # 26 |
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Quote (Banksi) The fact that DK carries less, gives it more points for other attributes.
Had a look at this, even tried breaking down the abilities and assigning arbitrary values.
The points paid for some very major abilities just dont seem reasonable.
Will post more later.
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DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| pavlov | Date: Monday, 05-Mar-2012, 21:57:58 | Message # 27 |
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Let me get this right you want to re-point the karman army
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yet again the sticky plaster is required
Consumption of TNT turns urine amber or deep red, which people often mistake for blood.
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Message edited by pavlov - Monday, 05-Mar-2012, 22:03:11
There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
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| zellak | Date: Monday, 05-Mar-2012, 22:49:14 | Message # 28 |
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To Pavlov ;
Nice post.
Makes a change from your usual one line cryptic comments.
One of these days you might post something constructive. 
Anyway .....back to work.......its only one trooptype we are trying to find the equation for. (not the entire army)
Here is my first attempt at the formula.
DK 4 Passengers 95 AP / arm 14 60 AP/ gun 20 AP / morale 20 AP / move 30 AP /= 225 AP
BTR 5.... 8 passengers 190 AP / arm 11 45 AP / gun 10 AP / morale 10 AP /move 20 AP / = 275 AP
the armour AP values have to be wrong, no way you can get +3 armour for only 15 AP.
In fact, the more i look at it... its the armour which is the hardest part to solve.
And of course there may be no formula at all, just arbitrary numbers which were then not playtested.
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DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| Banksi | Date: Tuesday, 06-Mar-2012, 01:03:46 | Message # 29 |
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Quote (zellak) DK 4 Passengers 95 AP / arm 14 60 AP/ gun 20 AP / morale 20 AP / move 30 AP /= 225 AP
BTR 5.... 8 passengers 190 AP / arm 11 45 AP / gun 10 AP / morale 10 AP /move 20 AP / = 275 AP
the armour AP values have to be wrong, no way you can get +3 armour for only 15 AP.
Since we are now in agreement that passengers cost points.
Can I point out more flaws in the above points calculations
Guns - if 8 shots at str 8 cost 20ap then 6 at str 7 must cost 13ap
Morale - if morale 10 costs 20ap then morale 9 costs 18ap
Movement - if movement 25 costs 30ap then movement 20 costs 24ap - DK movement is 25
Armour - if armour 14 costs 60ap then armour 11 costs 47.128ap
From those Calculations it looks like either your carrying troop figure is too high or the Soundounk is too cheap or indeed all your calculations are wrong.
May I point out this is a pointless exercise:
1. Due to the fact that we don't have the base calculations used when creating the units initially.
2. We aren't going to come to any agreement to change the points
3. The discussion is going nowhere.
4. It's beginning to look like a vendetta against the Karman army.
I suggest we close this thread NOW.
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Message edited by Banksi - Tuesday, 06-Mar-2012, 01:23:24
Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| pavlov | Date: Tuesday, 06-Mar-2012, 07:20:02 | Message # 30 |
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Pavlov
Nice post.
Makes a change from your usual one line cryptic comments.
One of these days you might post something constructive. dry
As usual ingnoring the question.
Are you suggesting re-pointing the karman or are you just trolling
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There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
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| gerrywithaG | Date: Tuesday, 06-Mar-2012, 10:41:54 | Message # 31 |
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Okay Gents!
Enough is enough. I didn't think I'd ever have to do this but I've asked the moderator to lock this thread. I know that this may not go down well with some members and it may be seen as a form of censorship. I have to say that I feel somewhat uncomfortable doing it, but would add that I think that it is for the best in this instance. PM me if you think otherwise.
What started as an interesting thread is generating into a pointless exercise and argument. I was hoping that we could have managed to possibly have worked out a way of points costing afv's for future benefit but it seems to have turned in to anything but.
I would ask people to think very carefully before making any posts and ask themselves this question
IS WHAT I'M ABOUT TO POST GOING TO ADD TO THE DISCUSSION IN A CONSTRUCTIVE MANNER???
Posts that don't aren't helpful and, quite frankly, aren't wanted either. I want to be reading threads that enhance our game, albeit with a bit of good natured banter.
I also know that this could just be opened under a new thread, and would be happy to see that if it was done constructively.
Da'Umpire
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And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
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